Straight Talk with Hereford Breeders - August 1997
By Sharla Adams

What is it about Hereford cattle that your commercial producers value?

McCLINTOCK: The good points we've got going for us are fertility, saleable cattle and a lot of numbers and breeders to choose from. The survivability of these cows on the range has been documented and is very good.

RAMOS: In the last couple of years, I have been selling Hereford bulls that are being used by purebred breeders from other breeds to cross with their cattle. The packers and order buyers are recognizing that a white face gives you added value.

I like it when a rancher comes to you and says, "Hey, I sold 25 F-1 Hereford-cross calves and I averaged $45 a head more than my straightbred calves, and by the way, do you have any more bulls?"

BREEDING: Mothering ability and maternal characteristics. They also say they're good hustlers--they don't stay in the corner of the pasture. The bulls go out and do a good job of getting the cows bred and the cattle grow well.

What do you really think about EPDs--and the American Hereford Association's decision to use ultrasound data to generate carcass EPDs?

DAVISON: I believe EPDs are a tool. If you use just EPDs in your selections, then you will breed cattle that have good EPDs, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be breeding good cattle. There are other things you need to consider if you want to breed good all-around cattle. With the merit of carcass traits becoming more valuable in the industry, I think our carcass EPDs will be more important because they measure the bottom line. But, actual carcass performance data is probably just as valuable.

McCLINTOCK: EPDs are here to stay--there's no getting around it. They are a management tool, but only one of many things that need to be looked at. They are not the one and only answer to building a cow herd.

You can buy an animal with what you think are exceptional EPDs and a great pedigree, but you could be sacrificing structural soundness, optimum size, muscle, fertility and other things that the numbers don't tell you.

I'm for within-breed EPDs and I do use them when I buy cattle. But I'm against across-breed EPDs and I think those are gonna get us all in a lot of trouble.

BREEDING: They are a very useful tool if used properly. The carcass EPDs could possibly be the very best EPDs that have been devised for Hereford cattle.

BENNETT: They are quite accurate in our herd. If contemporary numbers are fairly large in a herd, and bulls are used in more than one herd, they seem to be pretty accurate. I think carcass EPDs should be backed up with some progeny testing.

What is your opinion of the Certified Hereford Beef^® program and the level of involvement by Texas breeders?

DAVISON: The product is outstanding! I think the cattle and the management specs for those cattle have a lot going for them. The challenge is to get the word out and the product out so the consumer can identify with it.

RAMOS: I'm on the national board and it is our No. 1 priority. We have devoted a lot of time, money and energy to support it. We are still in the early stages of the program, but I think we will just see it grow and grow and see more Texas breeders participating.

However, I feel that we should feed cattle as close as possible to the environment in which they are raised. Texas cattle should not have to be shipped across the country to be fed.

SMITH: I think the ability of Texas producers to get involved with CHB is the biggest problem we have right now. We're losing out if we don't get something going down here.

But, one problem for Texas is that they don't accept any Brahman influence. There are some good Brahman cattle and we could sell a lot of Hereford crosses with 1/8 Brahman in them.

BREEDING: Texas breeders will be more involved if the program grows to where it demands more cattle to be killed. At the present time, we have to ship them to Nebraska or Iowa to get in the program. But, this spring there have been quite a few yearlings bought from this area that went to the CHB program.

BENNETT: I think it's gaining wider acceptance at the retail end. I expect the association to come up with other programs that utilize crosses other than what is accepted in CHB, including Brahman genetics.

What kind of role does the show ring play today?

McCLINTOCK: The glamour part of the business--it's the best part! I think it's necessary to go and see where your program is in relation to the other breeders. For any breed, the show ring is so expensive now that it has cut a lot of people out who should probably be there.

You've got to get the product out in front of people. There is nothing like going to Denver, where you see the top cattle from everyone's herd from one end of the United States to the other. You would
drive your wheels off of your truck if you tried to see those cattle any other way.

Anyone can go to a show and find an animal to fit their program and make it better. It may be the champion or it may be in fifth place.

RAMOS: I think the show ring today is less important to what I call "true cattle breeders"--breeders who are truly sensitive to the commercial industry. If a cattle breeder were to breed strictly for the show ring, I sincerely believe that it might result in the wrong type of cattle.

I'm not saying that we don't need the show ring. But, I think breeders need to recognize that the cattle being exhibited in the ring have had different management practices and every nutritional opportunity to maximize their development. I just think it's unrealistic to expect that type of animal to perform as well in the pasture.

BREEDING: Showing is almost prohibitively expensive if you don't get good advertising by doing well. I don't know that shows will ever be as popular as they once were, but they are still a good tool to compare your animal to others.

BENNETT: I think the show ring has less merchandizing value than in past years. I think we're more concerned with production and carcass traits than we used to be. The only way the show ring can remain real viable is to reflect that.

Do show cattle carry a stigma?

DAVISON: I do see that. I also see why it's that way. There is a whole lot to the show besides genetics. It can be as much of a fitting contest as anything else, and it's that way in all breeds. But, visual appraisal is one aspect of selection that should never be overlooked.

McCLINTOCK: I don't buy that. We bring our show bulls home and turn them out.

BREEDING: There are still some cattle in the show ring that might be too big, but there are more cattle in the "real" world that are too little. I think that most breeds have gone overboard in selecting for cattle that are smaller. When you have mature cows that weigh 800 pounds, I think that's too small--unless drought or other conditions limited them.

In what direction is the Hereford breed headed?

DAVISON: I'm not sure where the breed is headed, but for us, it's going to be the same as with our other breeds. That is to identify and eliminate the problems. Identify the superior cattle and gather carcass information to see where we stand.

McCLINTOCK: The future for the Hereford breed is sky high and I feel real good about being in the position that I'm in working with these cattle. The bull sales have been real good and I think a lot of people are going back to Hereford bulls.

One thing that we're not really concerned with is color. A lot of these breeds are trying to get black. We can't do that. What we can do is really focus on getting quality animals that fit the parameters set out by the packing industry.

RAMOS: The Hereford breed will continue to be at the forefront with identifying and promoting the qualities of Hereford beef. It will continue to play a leading role in crossbreeding and composite breeding programs. I hope that our target and aim will be the commercial producer and the needs of the ultimate consumer.

SMITH: I think the breed is on the way back. People are getting more interested in quality meat and need cattle with less problems. Some other breeds are dealing with calving problems and slow breeders, but Herefords have always been known to calve every year and survive through a drought.

BENNETT: We've got a breed that is based on maternal qualities and we'll probably maintain those but put more emphasis on the end product.

Do you foresee any changes in breed type?

McCLINTOCK: I really like the Hereford cattle that I'm seeing nowadays. I think we've put some frame on them but we've got quality to go along with it.

RAMOS: I think the breed has seen and will continue to move toward a middle-of-the-road type animal in the 5¹/2 to 6¹/2 frame score with greater emphasis on muscling and depth of body. Cattle have to be selected and bred for their environment to be self-sufficient.

You can no more force cattle into fitting an environment they aren't designed to work in, than you can raise a polar bear in Laredo, Texas. God put polar bears in Alaska and javelina in South Texas for a reason.

SMITH: Right now, Herefords just need a little more thickness and muscling.

BENNETT: Probably not that much. The thing the breed needs more than anything is to eliminate the bottom fourth.

What are the biggest challenges that Hereford breeders are facing today?

DAVISON: As a breed, there has probably been too many bulls sold as herd bulls that are out of cows with bad udders. We need to correct that. Also, the breed always needs to watch eyes and pigment. The hooded-type eyes seem to cause less problems. We can't think that there are no problems just because we love these cattle. All breeds have them, we just have to recognize what they are and try to make them better.

RAMOS: Hereford breeders need to produce cattle that work in our commercial industry. We need to recognize our niche in crossbreeding programs, like black baldies, F-1 Seneford and others. We need to breed cattle to fit those basic needs and still offer top genetics for purebred operations.

We have EPDs for milk and such, but I'm not so sure if the registration certificates for Hereford cattle shouldn't indicate whether the animal is pigmented or not. That is a very important trait with commercial cattle raisers.

SMITH: Getting our bull customers back. People are coming back for bulls that will breed cows and have a good calf crop percentage, with live calves that eventually do well in the feedlot. Whenever they see somebody making money with cattle that don't have to be in the feedlot for a long time, that will help.

BREEDING: The biggest thing that we have to fight right now to sell Hereford cattle is "black mystique." We have found out through research at Colorado State University, that Hereford cattle do better than what packers and order buyers have claimed. We just need more research to get the truth out and prove it. CHB should help as much as anything.

How would you describe the ideal cow for your environment?

DAVISON: The ideal Hereford cow in this environment is feminine in her neck, with a big spring of rib, sound on her feet and legs, with good udder attachment. She has capacity, small teats, heavy milk, sheds her hair quickly and stays slick, and calves on time every year.

Frame score matters, but I think these other traits are more important. You may have a bigger cow that can still do all of the things that you want her to do. I'd rather define some things that I want her to do rather than her frame score.

McCLINTOCK: I'm kind of a fanatic about the mothers of our herd bulls. I want them to be good, functional cows, hopefully that calve every year, have good teats and a nice bag. I want it all! And the thing is you can't have that. You have to find parts to complement your strengths and weaknesses.

RAMOS: I like good uddered, sharp-fronted cows with a 5¹/2 frame score that are fully pigmented and have a lot of depth of body. You need deep bodies to furnish a large incubator for the calf to develop and for the cow to ingest a lot of grass. My cattle are raised strictly on grass and forage, and cactus that we burn during dry times.

Here in South Texas, our calves are born unassisted, so you want a cow with a large pelvic area. Also maybe a little set to her legs so that she doesn't stifle her joints walking over large pastures.

SMITH: I want a cow that is about 1,100 to 1,200 pounds in her working clothes; probably a body condition score of six or seven.

BENNETT: We don't really have a particular size, we let it float between 6 and 8. We want her to be relatively easy-keeping with a lot of capacity and good reproductive performance.

And the ideal bull?

DAVISON: The ideal bull has a mother that is the ideal Hereford cow. Then, he also is sound-legged and thick muscled--the right kind of muscling with some expression, not the round look or flat.

I think length of neck is something that is important in both cows and bulls. The ideal bull is athletic and walks proudly up on his feet. He also has to be sound reproductively.

McCLINTOCK: If I were to go out and buy my ideal bull, he would frame over 7, about 7¹/2. He'd be very pleasing to look at, with a lot of natural thickness over his top and into his quarter, structurally correct, fertile, hopefully red eyes, excellent EPDs and all the other data like weaning weight and yearling weight.

RAMOS: We need bulls with a lot of muscling, length, a good rear end and good feet and legs. I personally believe that we have lost a lot of length in our cattle over the years. I would rather have an animal that is longer and not quite as tall than vice versa. When you stretch out that animal, you maximize the loin and other quality cuts.

SMITH: We can use bigger bulls. Mainly I want them to travel well and be functional. They need good feet and legs and all of the proper tools to breed a lot of cows.

BENNETT: We like our herd bulls to be on the upper end of that frame range, 6, 7 or 8. They should have acceptable birth weights and be as high in growth traits as we can get.

What is your "true" role as a seedstock producer?

DAVISON: To work for the commercial cowman. It's our duty to do the homework and gather the research to produce cattle that will improve their herds and produce a quality product. You also need to know what they've got in their cow herd.

That's what my job is--to do business in a way that encourages repeat business and help them reach their goals.

McCLINTOCK: Lloyd (Whitehead) and I made the decision here to raise quality cattle. When we tour someone around the ranch, we want them to see cattle that they will hopefully be impressed with. So, we try to buy the best bulls that we can and make the cow herd as maintenance-free as it can be.

And, we've probably tried to do that as economically as possible. If we do that, then we've taken a lot of the guesswork out of what those bulls can do for both our registered and commercial customers.

BREEDING: Ideally, it's to produce an animal that will be satisfactory to the housewife, the feedlot operator, the packer, the people that run cattle on grass and commercial producers. I don't think you should shoot for anything less than that.

Through the years, I have learned that you need to raise a product that you can sell, whether or not it's something that you like. It has to fit within the mainstream of the business.

What is the biggest change you have witnessed in the Hereford breed over the years?

DAVISON: Well, I've raised cattle for about 10 years, so I haven't seen the type of big changes that the people before me have seen. I've seen some little changes, but in the cattle industry it takes a long time period for major changes to happen.

When you make a decision to use a bull, it ends up being close to four years before you get any real results from that decision. You really have to stay focused. A lot of people are in and out of this business and they don't get to see the results of their decisions.

McCLINTOCK: When I first saw Hereford cattle 20 to 25 years ago, I thought they were too little and didn't have enough milk. You couldn't have given me a Hereford cow back then. At that time, there was also some resistance to buying white-faced cattle to put on feed.

But in the last 20 years, the Hereford breed has done an excellent job in improving on the size and quality of the cows. With CHB, there is getting to be more incentive to raise Hereford calves and put them on feed. Quality-wise, the cattle have just improved enormously.

RAMOS: Frame score is probably one of the biggest changes I have seen. Some of the genetics that were popular back in the '60s and early '70s are now becoming popular again. It seems as if you could almost take 25 or 30 years of breeding for frame, set it aside and pick up and breed to some top bulls that were made unpopular by the frame score race.

SMITH: One of the big changes in the Hereford breed is that we used to have calving problems because the cows were either too small or the calves were too big. We don't have calving problems anymore; at least I don't anyway.

BREEDING: In just the last few years, I think the breed has finally come around to where we need to be. If we had used carcass EPDs 10 to 12 years ago, we wouldn't have to deal with "black mystique" now.

BENNETT: We have had to take a little fat off of the cattle to make them work better for the consumer, and that hasn't gone without a price. There has to be a compromise between their ability to maintain themselves and have the ideal carcass.

That's one of the reasons we saw a change in frame size, to lengthen out their growth pattern and lay down fat at a later age. Earlier on, they matured at too light of a weight. But, I think we have eliminated that pretty well in the better end of the cattle.

What do you see as the biggest mistake made by the average breeder?

DAVISON: We all make them. Hopefully you learn from them--I should be starting to get pretty smart by now! The biggest mistake the average guy probably makes is not getting enough information to make the right decision, especially on what bulls to use.

McCLINTOCK: I don't know if people shop around enough. You can shop around and find cattle that are reasonably priced, bred correctly and managed correctly, that can make you competitive in whatever segment of the industry you want to be in, whether you want to show, raise range bulls, club calves, or whatever.

Now don't get me wrong, there are some high-priced cattle that are worth every dollar that you pay for them. But, you're putting all of your eggs in one basket. You have to look around; you just can't jump into it.

SMITH: Some of the registered breeders get their bulls too fat. You have to get them fat to sell them, but then they will have a hard time that first year. Also, we don't blow our horn enough to sell our cattle. We're sitting back and letting other breeds outsell us.

BENNETT: Probably we all need to put a little tougher selection on animals that we keep for replacements and the bulls that we keep to sell. We need to steer more of the bulls. That's probably the biggest fault in all breeds.

What advice would you give to young ranchers who dream of getting into the purebred business?

DAVISON: First, don't get in the purebred business before you have some experience with cattle and the commercial business. Have a set of commercial cows or spend a lot of time visiting with commercial ranchers.

Secondly, produce only quality. You can't get in the rat race of only producing cheap bulls, because there is no way you can provide information, feed the bulls and make any money on them when they are in that $1,200 to $1,500 range.

And be sure and pick out good role models. I have quite a few of them and not all of them are necessarily in the cattle business. Finally, always operate with integrity.

McCLINTOCK: Buy quality! You need to buy from an operation that has a lot of integrity.

How do you figure that out if you're new to the business?

McCLINTOCK: That is scary! If I were a neophyte and just getting into this business, I'd probably try to go to some field days, sales and shows to talk to people. I'd travel around and look at a lot of ranches. You also need to have a program and enough guts to stick to it.

You can't follow the show ring fads, and you can't try and do what someone else is doing. You just have to decide what you can sell and be honest in what you produce and the way you sell it.

And, you're gonna make some mistakes, but nowadays, you can't afford to make too many. If you buy one bad bull, you're gonna feel the effects of that bull for several years.

RAMOS: My advice would be to stay focused, be very patient, be disciplined with your breeding program and do not get overwhelmed with fads and chasing "rabbit trails." If you are breeding cattle for the long term: identify a handful of proven cows, stick with that genetic base and linebreed those cattle to proven genetics.

A lot of young breeders seem to go out and buy one cow of this breeding, a second cow of that breeding and so on. They end up with Caesar salad genetics with maybe a good calf or two, but they don't really know what they have.

If you really want to leave a mark in the cattle industry and you are truly a "breeder," you have to commit yourself to breed cattle over 10, 15, 20 years, or in my case, a lifetime. Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts to breeding cattle.

SMITH: It's a long, hard trip! The main thing is to start out with a few good cattle and work with them to build it up. The financial aspect of the business is really hurting all cattle breeders and farmers.

It's amazing the number of people who have second jobs; there are very few people that make a living straight out of agriculture. Until they change some tax laws, it's always going to be a tough, uphill battle.

BENNETT: Select a bloodline that is well-established and acceptable across a broad range of breeders. Also, select from breeders with a reputation for producing good cattle in numbers. Use EPDs and your eyeballs to select too.

Financially, it is an expensive business, and a long-range business. You have to have a fair amount of money to really develop a breeding and merchandizing program.

What is your No. 1 priority in making breeding and selection decisions?

DAVISON: Make sure that you utilize all of the tools available to you. Don't just look at one thing, look at the whole picture and realize there isn't one trait you're after, it's a balance of traits.

RAMOS: I breed cattle that are linebred to genetically superior animals. I don't buy a cow that cannot do it in my pastures and that I will have to feed. Secondly, I select animals that will improve my existing genetics, whether it's pigment, a hooded eye, more milk, muscling, stretch, or whatever.

I make sure an individual can produce offspring that can go into other registered or commercial herds in my market area. There is no point in my breeding cattle that I love if there is no market for them, or my environment cannot sustain them.

SMITH: On bulls, it's structural correctness. With females, I want productive, good mothers and milkers that produce a calf every year.

BREEDING: I guess it would depend on what my herd needed the most at the time. Right now, I would be careful to select something with muscling, along with a balance of EPDs. You don't really need an extremely high number in any one area.

I think muscling is what Herefords need to select for as much as anything; also maybe some additional marbling. One important thing to remember is not to buy something that could take away from the strong points you already have in our herd.

BENNETT: If I were buying, I would be concerned with genetic background and the breeder's reputation. Then, I would look at EPDs. For example, I'd like a birth weight EPD to be under five, weaning weight EPDs should be over 30, yearling weight EPDs over 60, milk EPDs over 15 and milk and growth EPDs up around 30 or better.

Where will the next generation of Hereford breeders emerge? Are you worried that there won't be anyone to fill your shoes someday?

DAVISON: Well, I have three kids. I'll try to be a good example to them, and hope that it's something they'll have a desire to do. I'll help them pursue it if it is. I think the important thing is that we provide a good example to young people to do their best and make a contribution in whatever they decide to do.

McCLINTOCK: Yes, I'm real concerned. It's more of a problem than just a Hereford problem or even a cattle problem; it's an economy problem. You almost have to inherit the land and some cows. There are so many variables--drought, low market, high feed costs.

To get into the purebred end, it's a fickle industry where pedigree comes into play, integrity of the breeder, EPDs and other things that you really have no control over. I'm awfully concerned about who my boys are going to sell cattle to in the future.

One thing I feel strongly about is that we need to make the junior shows more important than the open shows. You can't do too much for the junior kids. Texas goes above and beyond what I've seen in other states; the competition is awesome. But it's a tough business and you've got to put in your time and pay your dues.

SMITH: I have a son who is a senior at Texas A&M and he wants to come back and step into my shoes. I feel that he has the ability, but I worry about the finance part. Every generation we lose some. There are a lot of young people out there who could do it if they could just swing the finances.

BREEDING: I think there are a lot more young people in the business than you think there are. A lot of them are in the background doing a lot of the work, but they don't get much credit for it. The cattle business and farming are really tough financially, but they have been for a while.

As the numbers of farmers and ranchers keep going down, eventually we'll probably get to the point where you can go into the business and make money again. When the economics get right, I think that will take care of it.

BENNETT: I think that is one of the really big concerns, because there aren't a lot of young people coming in--primarily because it costs so much to develop a program. And, the rewards are probably not adequate for the amount of investment you need to have. It's a real concern to the whole cattle industry, but I don't know what the answer is.

RAMOS: I think a lot of the next generation of Hereford breeders will come from our junior programs and young people that we touch along the way. Our junior Hereford programs, as well as 4-H and FFA, are our future and we have to continue to encourage and support them.

There are some excellent kids in those programs who continue to amaze me. I cannot give enough credit to those programs; the future of all breeds lies with their junior members. Unfortunately, it's very difficult for young people to go out and buy a ranch.

We'll probably see future young breeders leasing land more than buying it, with the exception of a few who may be blessed with surplus funds from a second profession or other investments. What is really interesting in South Texas is that the traditional concept of the cow-calf producer is not as popular as it used to be.

A lot of breeders and landowners are pasturing steers out of Mexico for more flexibility. The steers can be sold when pastures go bad. However, a purebred breeder cannot do that, because it takes a lifetime to put your genetics together.

If I get into a drought, I can't just sell all of my cows and start over tomorrow. It would be impossible. The genetics that I have are the result of 33 years of breeding and hard work. I love cattle, but if I had to start over, I don't know whether I could ever do it again. It is a lifetime commitment.*